this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.
both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.
going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.
• May I gently suggest that labels such terms as "indoctrination" and "trapped in a cult" and "preaching a false gospel" seem to be harsh, unloving, mind-closing accusations, much as it would be if someone called you a "bigot"! These hardly are the words that we would find endearing and kind, which you must also need to hear and feel, just as I do. Just perhaps, practicing loving-kindness could to be warm and friendly, diplomatic and humble, even appealing and uplifting, right?
— Spike Tassel.
this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.
both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.
going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.
• To Mickey mouse (Post 1475) and mrsjones5 (Post 9298): Some here don't see how being a hoodlum or a blackmailer or a spy or a manipulator or a con artist or a "practical joker" could ever possibly be hallmarks of those with an upright, proper motive. Are you suggesting we could be wrong about this?
• To restrangled (Post 5303) and Priest73: When you speak of Revelation 3: 16 and "hot or cold", what are your thoughts about what Jesus is getting at when he refers to "hot" and "cold"?
• To Mickey mouse (Post 1477): Actually, if you're right, then it matters quite a lot what each and every one of us considers the definition of an apostate to be. It determines what our relationships are going to look like.
• To reniaa (Post 1449, Post 1451): It is interesting the way you paraphrase me by saying »Is it 'Search and destroy' (Saul) or 'Search and Rescue' (Paul).« Your own approach when you 'go on the doors' suggests that it may be even better to characterise the enduring Christian as one whose mission is to 'Search and Discuss'. It's about keeping to respectful conversation in short bursts about topics that might have interest for both parties. It depends on good listening and silence while the other speaks so that we each can get to know the other person better and (hopefully) have even more in common, with time. That seems to leave it open for everyone to be 'rescued' from any ignorance or misconceptions or mis-steps along the way. I like that. It's very hopeful and positive. It can help us all mature in our thinking and understanding, in all its applications.
• To Mr. Majestic (Post 857): 'Door work' is about at least attempting to engage other people of varying beliefs in respectful discussions about the Bible and the perceptions that we build our lives on. If the householder can eventually share with us in 'going on the doors', that could increase the range and depth of what we can share, even becoming good, reliable friends for each other. Who wouldn't feel better with more real and true friends?! It's an education work about the Bible for even the one with the message, about who Jehovah really is, and how we as individuals and together can be better people. If we're out to 'save' people, even 'happy Mormons', we are also in need of the same 'salvation', until everlasting life is granted. If my message is one of doubt or fantasy or error or being too black-+-white, then I pray that my faith may become strong and sound and whole and in full-colour. May I learn how to test properly whether I'm in the faith, and may I keep on testing so that I may become fully approved to those who do and ought to matter most.
• To isaacaustin (Post 1498, Post 1501): 'Trapped in a cult' and 'false gospel JWs offer' seem not to be the words of those with a 'free mind'. Could that be why it is a daunting task when you 'try to gear ones toward Jesus'? Perhaps your own mind needs freeing still on various points, just as mine surely does on many.
— Spike Tassel.
this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.
both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.
going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.
To TD (Post 1881.3b): Opposition is inevitable when there are varying opinions and viewpoints. That happened in the 1st century CE, both inside the Congregation and between the Congregation and other groups. Even Paul the Christian could fairly be said to be a public opposer on at least 3 occasions: I think of the incident with "fellow circuit overseer" Barnabas over whether John Mark was a fit publisher. And there was the occasion with the whole Corinthian congregation, when "disfellowshipping" became the ruling in 1 Corinthians 5. And, who could forget the time when Paul caught Peter hanging with the Judaizers.
• For me, all 3 cases I mention here about Paul opposing those in the Congregation are about "varying degrees of bad association" within the Congregation (yet another reference, from 1 Cor. 15:33).
• The case of the Catholic Pope seems to have its parallels. The unscriptural title of Pope itself (meaning Father) and its phoney claim to a spurious Petrine papacy in Rome are just the beginning of the heresy. The later lying assertions regarding Papal Infallibility, and the Papal role in the Inquisitions, the Crusades, and the Holocaust are just some of the later iterations. It was high time that the truth was finally broadcast about this spiritual Emperor with no clothes and the spiritual scandals, like Christmas and Hell and Purgatory and the Apocrypha, taught throughout his empire. Just as Jesus made the whips twice and routed the moneychangers from the Temple, so the modern era has demonstrated with the sound cars, etc. that true, passionate zeal has not been lost from the true Christian's repertoire. To everything there is a season. Turn, turn, turn.
To Mickey mouse (Post 1468): With true repentance comes Jehovah's forgiveness and blessing. So it is with those who once said false things, even prophecies, as long as they repent.
— Spike Tassel.
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i feel alone, but i think that's because it's my own fault.
• To Strider Arekksu (Post 1): Welcome, Strider. I've made some of the same mistakes as you, so maybe some of what I say might work for you too. First, I can tell you that when I need to write something down and then copy it into JWN, I now make sure it's in a .txt file, so that I don't get the gobbledy-gook at the start of my posts, like I did when I did my first post, just like you did with your first one. That way, you'll feel like taking your time again, like you did here.
• It's good that you had such a WISE grandma. It sounds like she knew what is really important: keeping calm, listening to what other people have on their mind, and being there for them with love, kindly telling what's on her mind as to what the Good Book says. You've been like that yourself, and you felt good when you commented freely at the meetings in your own words. That's evident here, in front of us total strangers, so I think you can do it again, if you can let Jehovah help all your priorities get together in the same way. Being a little nervous, but speaking out just the same because you know it's right and needs to be said: that's called humble courage. That's excellent.
• There's lots and lots more you talked about, but it's important not to think too much about yourself, that's like what happened to Job: he needed Elihu and Jehovah to speak up and ask him about the rain and the stars and the hippo and stuff like that. It got him thinking about Jehovah and the world Job could learn about, and the awesome things that Jehovah can do. Just as Jehovah helped Job and especially once Job prayed for his false comforters, so he'll help you. James 4:7-10 is good advice for all of us, even if it gets very emotional sometimes, like verse 9 there talks about. Being "anti-social" can be a good thing, as long as we each keep away from things that interfere with our relationship with Jehovah.
• I remember hearing, every once in a while, a particular thing at the meetings that you might have heard a few times yourself. It goes like this:- Which meeting is the most important?, the next one.
• I wish you well as you move on in your spiritual journey to the rest of what Jehovah has to offer you. — Spike Tassel.
this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.
both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.
going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.
• To isaacaustin (Post 1489): Jehovah and Jesus knows which honours they have bestowed upon C.T. Russell and J.F. Rutherford, and others, even you and me. Jehovah and his Son read hearts, and bless each one's obedience accordingly. We will know about the honours when they are revealed to us, in whichever way they endorse.
• Whether they were rewarded with heavenly life, or which spirit(s) bore witness with theirs appears to be a matter of faith. I do not want to share in anyone's blasphemy of the holy spirit, imputing wrong motives, etc. The charge regarding whether their track records are tainted is not for a mere mortal like me (with an incomplete knowledge of the facts that pertain from Jehovah's standpoint) to judge. Nor are the charges of false prophecy and preaching a false gospel. Presumptuousness is not a virtue, nor is it a display of loyalty to Jehovah's authority.
• To isaacaustin (Post 1490): Saul went on the authority of the Pharisees. Were the Pharisees' methods like the KGB or the SS or some other modern military organization, who relied on informants? That would fit what it says at Acts 9:1-2. Do organizations like this vary their methods, depending on the circumstances? I suggest that they do. And what method did Paul the Christian while in the district of Asia? You'll find that answer for yourself at Acts 20: 17-21, which seems to indeed set the precedent which the best of JWs diligently work to emulate.
• To TD Post 1880): Actually, I believe that JWs do apply the "Test of Gamaliel" very well, in the strict sense. They do not preach in a church or synagogue or mosque, nor do they preach in Vatican City. As to preaching to individuals that may attend these services, that is an entirely different matter, of course.
• If "no sane person wishes physical violence upon Jehovah's Witnesses", then why it there so much physical violence against them? It must be insanity and irrationality, madness and demons.
• "Blasting" messages from sound cars may be "an assault on the ears", but not in the category of "boxing them" or whatever physical brutality which was authorized by the high priest for those such as Saul the Pharisee.
— Spike Tassel.
this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.
both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.
going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.
• To isaacaustin (Post 1485) and reniaa (Post 1434): I believe that being "blessed by spirit" means that both C.T. Russell and J.F. Rutherford were more than "just imperfect men". They were leaders whom Jehovah appears to have honoured because of their loyalty and integrity and calling. After all, Matthew 28: 19-20 and Matt.24:45-47 continued to be in play then as now. Their blessed leadership allowed for the growth and blessing of the rest of the Body since Jehovah was favourably listening to their prayers. I think both Russell and Rutherford understood that the real issue was Universal Sovereignty, and that preaching was/ is for all to demonstrate their loyalty to this issue. The issues facing the brothers manifested themselves differently as history moved along, and Jehovah has allowed each leader some latitude in expressing their understanding of the Divine Will. Each was corrected in the way that Jehovah saw fit to allow.
• To Mr. Majestic (Post 853): "harmful, abusive cult" is one view, "support structure which most admit on here" is another, very different one. The first indicates "intrusion and coercion", where as the other is "reliance and cooperative interest".
• To isaacaustin (Post 1488): Warning neighbours of obvious danger (such as a fire) or alerting the emergency response team is one thing. Recognizing, avoiding, and diffusing the spiritual dangers is something else. Just as different countries have different licensing requirements one from another, so different religious bodies differ one from the other in practices. Both medicine and religion are a matter of health, free will, and informed consent. Choice determines outcome. It's a matter for each of the participants what each is willing to accept.
— Spike Tassel.
this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.
both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.
going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.
• To Mr. Majestic: If you are "attacking … the concept of religious faith", then what about the theistic definitions of FAITH (found at Hebrews 11:1) and CORRECT RELIGION/ WORSHIP (found at James 1:27).
• To Reniaa: If I were against these Scriptural definitions, I'd be anti-theistic, not atheistic.
this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.
both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.
going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.
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To Mr. Majestic: The question of FREEDOM is interesting, also. Some think of freedom TO do something. Some think of freedom FROM something. I think of freedom OF something. Like freedom OF worship, freedom OF the press, freedom OF movement. Things that allow life to be more loving, more understanding, more helpful, more enlightening.
According to my understanding of the Bible's own words, FAITH is something we can assuredly expect, based on proven evidence. (Heb. 11:1 paraphrased). According to my read of it, one would find evidence of RESURRECTIONS, but not FAIRIES. I would suggest that even you, Mr. Majestic, have a FAITH of a dimension, even as you speak of "freedom that is beyond faith". Your FAITH is your expectations, based on the EVIDENCE that you have considered and now accept after receiving PROOF to your satisfaction.
Where we all differ is what we each consider as EVIDENCE and sound PROOF, and what we each do with what we consider. Perhaps, God's word trumps all else, or should. Perhaps, something else does, or should. Our individual analysis will determine what our individual relationship with Jehovah is. Whether Jehovah's views are deluded, or whether at least some of ours are: our analysis determines our spiritual maturity. Do we have the unfounded dogmatism characterised by Saul the Pharisee, or do we demonstrate the reasonableness of Paul the Christian?
this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.
both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.
going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.
Well said, Reniaa.
this was the same man at different times in his life yet he changed his name because he completely changed his ideals and goals too.
both were extremely zealous, both thought they were doing gods work, both thought they were working for the greater good.. acts 8:3 (new international version)3but saul began to destroy the church.
going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.. soul thought gods work was to destroy the christians but paul.... acts 20: 19i served the lord with great humility and with tears, although i was severely tested by the plots of the jews.
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Yizuman (Post 1913) writes: You can go door to door all you want Reniaa, count your time and hope for the best. But works alone will not save you...
"And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace." Romans 11:6
And I ask : What is that grace if not undeserved kindness? And how do we benefit from undeserved kindness if not by showing it to others, by our listening carefully to the real underlying concerns, and by then providing them the confidence that helps them apply the Kingdom message (more fully) in real life. So, you're right, even having some of the right works is not enough, the right motives and understanding must be at work also. Otherwise, our efforts go for naught. Saul the Pharisee went door to door, just as Paul the Christian did. But Saul was on a search-and-destroy mission, whereas Paul's mission was one of search-and-rescue. Grace is like forgiveness, we benefit from it only as we avail ourselves of it and practice it in our dealings with others, whomever they might be.
